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[Ian @ un4seen]

A friend of mine still wants DSP support...
And he's willing to code the plugins himself, even...

We'll have to talk ... If there's enough interest in creating DSP plugins, support will be added.

How come I hear sound when amplification is 0?  Isn't it there to mute XMPlay while letting everything else run unmuted?

As Boggy says, it's there to allow you to maximise the dynamic range and avoid clipping... to mute, put the volume slider to 0

The reason you hear sound at amp level 0 is that it uses a logarithmic scale (MODs always did, and now streams do too in 2.7). This means that the relative level change is constant between each step all along the slider, which is good for auto-amp.

Also, xmplay does not play concatenated ogg files (i.e. ogg files that consist of multiple other ogg files merged together by simply using the copy command.) It only plays the first embedded file.

XMPlay does support chained OGGs when streaming (eg. internet radio), but as you say, not in local files. The reason being that it's a bit fiddly (if you want to be able to seek across all the chained OGGs), and I figured hardly anyone would be using them anyway - so I didn't bother

I'll look into it for 2.8 (or maybe 2.7a if there are enough good little suggestions)... do you know anywhere to download examples of chained OGG files? Sure, it's simple to make my own, but I'd also like to see evidence that they are in general use

[Guan]

If Lite and Full version of XMPlay is hard to make then there are more ways to make XMPlay Lite.
For example if there are 2 separate programs one program is XMPlayer itselfe and the playlist, the second program could be a information window of the current playing media including encoder info and they are linked together when you hit the info button or another button in XMPlayer the information window starts.
Hard to explain for me in english but i hope all anderstand what i mean  

[Tsorovan]

Not to piss on anyone, but I don't really see the point in adding such complexity as codec analyzer into a player. Basically, checking what codec has been used will only happen once, or at maximum, a couple of times. If you need to know it more often than that, well then you should mark your files. I always add codec + bitrate to the album dirs in my MP3 "collection".

Of course, this is Ian's decision, I just like to discuss things.

[sergeymen]

do you know anywhere to download examples of chained OGG files? Sure, it's simple to make my own, but I'd also like to see evidence that they are in general use

I have not come across any chained oggs online or on peer to peer networks, but questions about such files have come up on the ogg vorbis users list multiple times. But, then, there are not that many ogg files on the net period. I still think that adding support for chained files is necessary.

I don't really see the point in adding such complexity as codec analyzer into a player.

I agree. I think I have come accross standalone programs that do codec detections. This will only slow the player down.

[Brightguy]

Finally, is someone willing to create a WinAmp-styled skin?  I'd start messing around, but I don't have the time, ATM.

I briefly started one when you first asked, but I've been pretty busy since then.  (If you had of asked a month or two earlier I probably could have found the time...)  Anyway, I'll see what I can do in the upcoming months.  It will never be perfect, of course.  (For example currently the position slider would have to be the same of the regular sliders.)

[Pike84]

I think I have come accross standalone programs that do codec detections.

Would you happen to know of any right now? I'd be quite interested .

[Tsorovan]

As I said in a previous post, EncSpot. It's the best I've found.

[Olego]

BobbyB:

DTFT? H(w)? h(w)? Anyone know what they mean?

H(w) is either the Fourier transform of the function h(w) or the frequency response of a system, where h(w) is the impulse response.

Ian:

... to mute, put the volume slider to 0

But then it will mute all sounds in the system.  Here's my suggestion: if amp is 0 then output no sound.  Else, have it be logarithmic.  OR make a right-click menu to mute the sound of XMPlay.  OR make a device in devices that's /dev/null, so that I can save the MP3 stream without converting it to wave or playing it.  Basically, I would like to request the option of outputting no sound from one instance of XMPlay and normal sound from another.

Tsorovan:

Not to piss on anyone, but I don't really see the point in adding such complexity as codec analyzer into a player.

I second that.  
<edit>There are too many <br>s incorporated into <quote>s. </edit>
~Olego~

[Pike84]

As I said in a previous post, EncSpot. It's the best I've found.

Oh, I managed to miss it first, but I've got it now and it seems pretty good. Thanks .

[Alexsource]

How about having multiple info windows at the same time?
I mean, for the sake of viewing the extended playlist and the visualisation at the same time
Or... an option to turn the small playlist into the visual when you change from the visual to another section in the info window (OMG! what a weird thing i wrote! )

[Torkell]

If Lite and Full version of XMPlay is hard to make then there are more ways to make XMPlay Lite. ...

Yes, but I still don't see why it's worth it for a download that's less than 250K. Maybe I'm not seeing things in proportion, having an ADSL connection, but I still don't see a valid reason for this, given that under good (about 50Kb/s) dialup conditions you can download XMPlay in under a minute. Even with a 28.8Kb/s connection, it'll still only take you about a minute. If this was Windows Media Player than it would be a different matter, but for a 40-second download what's the point?

H(w) is either the Fourier transform of the function h(w) or the frequency response of a system, where h(w) is the impulse response.

Still confused What's a Fourier transformation

But then it will mute all sounds in the system. ... Basically, I would like to request the option of outputting no sound from one instance of XMPlay and normal sound from another.

I thought the original thing was that you were recording a stream, in which case since XMPlay will output to only one device at a time (not counting MIDI) you would hear nothing from it. Instance 2, playing the stream thru speakers, can be paused/stopped without affecting instance 1. It could even be playing the file instance 1 is writing. If you have a 3rd copy, then you can just pause/stop the 2nd copy without affecting the original stream-writing copy.
Hope you get what I mean

[Pike84]

How about having multiple info windows at the same time?

This was actually suggested some time ago, before 2.7, and Ian said it would be tricky.. It's a nice idea tho . I'd also like to see multiple playlists added - don't know if that's real tricky too .

[Brightguy]

What's a Fourier transformation

I'm no expert at this stuff, but Fourier transformations are used in data compression, like MP3.  Fourier was a mathematician who proved that any finite function could be represented by adding various sine / cosine waves together.  Now, an MP3 encoder looks at small sections of the original sound, and uses a Fourier transformation algorithm to split the sound into various frequencies, then examines the frequencies and removes data that isn't completely important, or the human ear would have difficulty hearing.

At least that's what I understand...  I didn't go into much detail, and oversimplified things, like I said, I'm no expert.

[Ian @ un4seen]

Ian:
But then it will mute all sounds in the system.

That depends on the drivers... the volume slider will affect only the XMPlay output with some, and all sounds with others.

I think the best idea would be a DSP volume option (ie. XMPlay alters the sample data rather than asking the drivers to alter the volume). That'll enable those with all sounds affected to control just the XMPlay output. The down side is there'll be a delay (the buffer length) in volume/balance changes. I'll add the option in the next update.

[Tsorovan]

Wouldn't it be solvable by just using a preamp stage, and let the volume steer that? Or will that maybe futz with the dynamic range...

[Ian @ un4seen]

That's basically what I said ... XMPlay would modify the sample data, rather than asking the drivers to modify the output level.

[Tsorovan]

Oh yeah. Goddamnit, I'm pretty daft, am I not? :|

Here's a monster post. I know no one will agree with my suggestions but at least I tried, eh?


UI
——————————
— M i s c e l l a n e o u  s —
 • Option to remove the taskbar entry on mini-on-top mode. Oh, and no tray icon either.
   A switch would suffice.
— P l a y l i s t —
 • Optional track numbering. [on|off]
      Maybe settable in skinconfig.txt? Or not.
 • Optional file format column. [on|off]
      Actually, this setting and the one above would probably work to have controlled with hotkeys.
      They're "hardcore" enough for it.
 • Optional bare filenames title formatting. I don't want to see any ID3 tags in the title display thanks.
 • Make track length right-adjusted, not centered.
      (My pet peeve.)
— S k i n n i n g / M i s c . —
 • Optional, alternate sliders. Fillable bar, working sort of like the level meter. Var in skinconfig.txt.
      Would do wonders for smallish skins (especially
      mine, of which I am the only user. Damn. :\ ).
 • Option [skinconfig.txt] for turning off flashing time display when paused.
      The play button already does that, and the polyrhythmic anti-synergistic behaviour with both
      flashing is a tad obtrusive in my opinion.
 • Option [skinconfig.txt] for turning off the tenths of seconds time display.
      I still think this is warranted as it can lower the amount of UI updates by ten times (if you're
      not showing any visualizations).
      I don't see the point in having the tenths displayed at all, to me they are just annoying.

ENGINE
——————————
 • Can't think of anything except 24/44.1 and 24/48 kHz support.
 • Oh, gapless playback. As the latest LAME codecs are the only ones that can make true gapless
   MP3s (and I guess OGG supports gapless mode),
   a pre-buffer option like nullsoft's gapless output would be nice.

————————————————————————————————————————————v

Something for a later major version:

Simple, quick, powerful media library a la STP (Simple Tray Player);

[Options:editlist control]
Directories to Add
[Options:checkbox control]
Sort by Letter

When you right-click the tray icon or maybe a button in the UI (I prefer a tray icon for it + a global hotkey for bringing up the menu) you get a list with the directories that are the direct subdirectories to the ones you entered in [Options:editlist]. The list would contain as many entries as possible, but maybe not covering the whole screen. It would of course have a ">" and "<" scroller if the dirs do not fit on one screen. When you select a directory it adds all the files contained therein to the playlist. Ctrl (or Alt) + click would replace the playlist with the directory's files (think: album) and start playing immediately. Shift + click would do the adding, but wouldn't hide the menu and instead let you add more directories. A recurse subdirectories option could maybe be useful too.



[I purposefully made it small for bandwidth reasons. It would of course take up as much vertical space as possible, but maybe on the horizontal plane, it could be limited, and just chop off the end of the dir and replace it with "..." or somesuch]

The Sort by Letter option would make virtual "directories" containing the first letter in the directory name, for a cascading menu like this:



I think this would rock. Wouldn't be as nice for those not having a well-organised collection though, I guess.

Oh, and to reiterate, the directories in the [Options:editlist control] shouldn't be visible on the menu at all, just as if their subdirs were in fact located in the same parent dir. If you have two identically named dirs in different parent dirs, well...that's your problem :) Maybe the malignant menu entry could be shown with a "*" in front of it or something.

Oh and yes, I'm weird for having the taskbar positioned vertically, I hear that a lot. Thing is, no one's ever made a good, functional, slim GUI to an OS. And don't bring up Gnome or KDE or something because they are even worse IMO.

[Ralesk]

Yes, but I still don't see why it's worth it for a download that's less than 250K. Maybe I'm not seeing things in proportion, having an ADSL connection, but I still don't see a valid reason for this, given that under good (about 50Kb/s) dialup conditions you can download XMPlay in under a minute. Even with a 28.8Kb/s connection, it'll still only take you about a minute. If this was Windows Media Player than it would be a different matter, but for a 40-second download what's the point?

The point is not the size, but more like the features.  Some stuff can confuse some people I guess
Anyway, in Miranda Instant Messenger, you have a checkbox in the Options that makes the settings for advanced users show up.  Which is IMHO a very nice idea.

[Torkell]

Here's a monster post. I know no one will agree with my suggestions but at least I tried, eh?

I'm agreeing with some, and doing a monster reply!

UI
— M i s c e l l a n e o u  s —
 • Option to remove the taskbar entry on mini-on-top mode. Oh, and no tray icon either.

Yes to taskbar icon removal, no to tray icon. I think that there should only be a tray icon.

— P l a y l i s t —
 • Optional track numbering. [on|off]
      Maybe settable in skinconfig.txt? Or not.

Or in the elusive xmplay.ini

 • Optional file format column. [on|off]
      Actually, this setting and the one above would probably work to have controlled with hotkeys.

Again, one for the INI file.

 • Optional bare filenames title formatting. I don't want to see any ID3 tags in the title display thanks.

Try in the general window or toggling the playlist display to see the filename. I think ID3 tags aren't too bad an idea, if they are properly entered.

 • Make track length right-adjusted, not centered.
      (My pet peeve.)

Best would be centered on the ":"

— S k i n n i n g / M i s c . —
 • Optional, alternate sliders. Fillable bar, working sort of like the level meter. Var in skinconfig.txt.
      Would do wonders for smallish skins (especially
      mine, of which I am the only user. Damn. :\ ).

Don't see much point in alternate sliders (as they can be different sizes). Fillable bars would be nice, and are done by WMP. Upload your skin and others may use it.

 • Option [skinconfig.txt] for turning off flashing time display when paused.
      The play button already does that, and the polyrhythmic anti-synergistic behaviour with both
      flashing is a tad obtrusive in my opinion.

Should be INI rather than skinconfig.

 • Option [skinconfig.txt] for turning off the tenths of seconds time display.
      I still think this is warranted as it can lower the amount of UI updates by ten times (if you're
      not showing any visualizations).
      I don't see the point in having the tenths displayed at all, to me they are just annoying.

The UI actually runs at 20fps, to cope with page/frame displays. The option should also be in the INI file.

ENGINE
 • Can't think of anything except 24/44.1 and 24/48 kHz support.

Really it should support any size/rate combination supported by the sound card.

 • Oh, gapless playback. As the latest LAME codecs are the only ones that can make true gapless
   MP3s (and I guess OGG supports gapless mode),
   a pre-buffer option like nullsoft's gapless output would be nice.

Have no views on this, as I'm not entirely sure what it is.

Something for a later major version:

Simple, quick, powerful media library a la STP (Simple Tray Player) ...

Personally I would like the directory structure to be shown, as it usually quite logical (e.g. by artist/album/group). Get it added to the playlist poll.

Oh and yes, I'm weird for having the taskbar positioned vertically, I hear that a lot. Thing is, no one's ever made a good, functional, slim GUI to an OS. And don't bring up Gnome or KDE or something because they are even worse IMO.

I try that ocassionally (sp?) with Win2k. My current layout is autohiding on the bottom of the left screen (multiple monitors rock), with two rows of quick icons/address bar/programs. I might try a vertical layout, on the left of my left screen (right monitor uses lower resolution and has some display problems, right side of left would just be annoying as it't the divider between the screens). The monitor layout is (physical & virtual):

/------------\
|            +--------\
|  1152x864  |  800x  |
|            |  600   |
\------------+--------/

And as for GUI, one of my "smart idea that I will do sometime this century"-type projects is an OpenGL-based fully-featured 3D file browser with Windows shell extension support, custom plug-in system and backwards compatability (so it will work with all fancy Windows Explorer stuff).

<edit>I forgot the all-important / in my <quote></quote> tags!</edit>

[Tsorovan]

Thanks for you input. You misunderstood some things though. Maybe my fault.

Yes to taskbar icon removal, no to tray icon. I think that there should only be a tray icon.

Wasn't clear; meant optional. You who want a tray icon can have it, I don't want either (unless the media browser thing get implemented) as I'm using mini-on-top and hence the rest is worthless.

[All instances of "INI instead of skinconfig"]

As there's no such thing yet, I chose what's already there. I think some things should be left to skinconfig.txt though, as for example removing the tenths display will make it possible to make that field smaller, but if you turn it on it'll be shit. But generally yes, an ini option would be better for those things.

Try in the general window or toggling the playlist display to see the filename. I think ID3 tags aren't too bad an idea, if they are properly entered.

Notice the word "bare" in "bare filenames". I.e. no dirs.

Best would be centered on the ":"

I guess it'd work.

Don't see much point in alternate sliders (as they can be different sizes). Fillable bars would be nice, and are done by WMP. Upload your skin and others may use it.

Alternate sliders/fillable bars is the same thing. Fillable bars instead of the present sliders. The skin is there for people to use, but I'm the only one who likes small, unobtrusive mini-on-top things it seems. I want to see what I'm playing. No biggie. I made it for myself.

Really it should support any size/rate combination supported by the sound card.

Of course. I agree.

--------

And as for GUI, one of my "smart idea that I will do sometime this century"-type projects is an OpenGL-based fully-featured 3D file browser with Windows shell extension support, custom plug-in system and backwards compatability (so it will work with all fancy Windows Explorer stuff).

Good luck with that one! BTW, Longhorn and its spawn will be DirectX-accelerated with lots of crappy effects shit. I don't want stuff like that. If there was a way to easily and quickly toggle an OSD to show what programs are running and then lithely switch between them (alt+tab doesn't cut it), I wouldn't have any bars at all anywhere. I already did away with using the mouse to start programs a long time ago by making custom, tersely named shortcuts and starting them through Win+R. It works better than anything else yet, but it's still bad. Oh well.