Topic: MO3 support for ModPlug

[Beatfox]

Ian, first of all I want to congratulate you on the excellent work you've done on all your software.  I'm truly amazed by the quality and depth of your effort in all of this -- keep it up!

Second, I hope I'm not being too ambitious with this, but I really believe this idea could work if you're willing.  I've posted the following message in the ModPlug software suggestion forum at www.modplug.com for Olivier Lapique (maker of the ModPlug software) and other members of the ModPlug staff to read:

-----
Several months ago I stumbled upon a guy named Ian Luck (developing under the name Un4seen) who has done something I'm surprised no one else has (apparently) done yet: MP3-compressed mods.  He has made a program that can take a mod file of any of the major formats (MOD/S3M/XM/IT) and MP3-compress the samples (the user can determine how much, if any, compression to use for each sample).  The result is an MO3 mod file that is a fraction of the filesize of the original mod, with little or no loss in sound quality.  Support for MO3 playback is implemented into his own mod player (XMPlay) and his excellent sound system library (BASS).

I personally believe that this format has tremendous potential.  However, I think its apparent lack of popularity is due to a lack of exposure on the scene.  This is where ModPlug could play a key part.  Due to ModPlug Player's unbelieveable popularity (which I'm sure you're well aware of), ModPlug has the ability to expose sceners to things they might not have otherwise known about.  If Olivier et al were willing to collaborate with Ian Luck on adding MO3 support for the ModPlug software, I think Ian's impressive format would reach a far greater potential than if it were supported by his software alone (as it is currently).

Un4seen's website is www.un4seen.com.  I'm leaving a post on the Un4seen forum regarding this same topic, so that Ian is also aware of my proposal.  I strongly encourage the ModPlug staff to get in contact with Ian and discuss this possibility, as I believe that it would benefit not only ModPlug and Un4seen, but the scene as a whole.

Thanks for listening,
BeaT (Seth Peelle)
-----

I'd like to give the same encouragement to you, Ian -- contact Olivier Lapique at www.modplug.com and see if you guys can work something out.  This is perhaps the best opportunity you could hope for to gain exposure for your MO3 format.  In today's modscene, it's not very often that a new mod format comes along and gains immense popularity -- the last time that happened was with IT, and that was 5 years ago!  Even if MO3 doesn't achieve that level of popularity, I think it would achieve a far greater user base than if you kept support for the format only in your own software, regardless of how good that software is (and I do believe that you have designed very good software).  Again, I truly think the MO3 format would be an immense benefit to the scene as a whole.  All it needs is your willingness to give it more exposure.

Thanks for listening, and keep up the good work.
BeaT (Seth Peelle)

[Ian @ un4seen]

It'd be quite straight forward for any software to support MO3, by using the UNMO3 program - simply decode the file, and load it like any other

[greg]

Hey Beatfox,

Some of the metalmod guys saw immediate potential in mo3 as soon as it was "discovered" 'round 'bout a year ago.  Metalmods can get huge with the constant lean towards a realistic sound so using mp3 samples would definately help.  More than one of us has asked on the modplug board about support for it although not quite as well written (heh).  Usually with the same response.  Something along the lines of mp3 samples not sounding as good or the filespec hasn't been released.  I'm not knocking modplug in any way.  I use it along with almost every other modfile player and think it's one of the best players around.  Just thought I'd throw this info your way.  It'll be interesting to hear what kinda response you get from the modplug crew though.  

-Greg

[Ralesk]

I got fed up with the MP crew after begging them quite a lot to fix their player's and tracker's fidelity, they were simply too ignorant...

I also had some different ideas... but noooooo.

I feel myself fine here. And I don't want this topic turn into a flame topic. Olive-Head ain't worth the effort.

[Beatfox]

Greg, I'm sorry to hear that past attempts to promote MO3 support have failed.  I can only hope that this one will be a little more successful.  So far the replies on that topic in the ModPlug suggestion forum have been mostly positive, so that's a little promising.  But of course I'll need to wait for a reply from Olivier or MisterX to find out what the "final say" is.

Ralesk, keep in mind that ModPlug is not a commercial software company.  It is basically one programmer who only works on these projects in his spare time, and gets absolutely no profit from doing so.  Olivier is very much like Ian (and tons of other freeware programmers out there) in that respect.

I've been browsing through the ModPlug suggestion forum, and I'm seeing numerous responses from Olivier and MisterX regarding a wide variety of topics brought up by users.  Some of those responses reject the idea as simply not being feasible at this time, some commend the suggestion as an excellent idea for a future version, and some ask for clarification or more information about the topic.  For the most part, these responses appear to be intelligent and constructive.  If there's any ignorance on their part, I doubt it's intentional.  The fact is that they get tons of requests for improvements on a regular basis, and they simply don't have the resources (time & ppl) to respond to all of them.

And Ralesk, I haven't seen your ModPlug suggestions so I don't know how well you worded them or what info you included in them, but I would like to offer a little advice regardless -- and this is actually addressed to everyone here.  From my experience, getting a good response from someone doesn't have as much to do with what topic you're addressing, but how you address it.  You'll have a better chance of getting an intelligent and constructive response if your suggestion is itself intelligent and constructive.  Provide as much info about the topic as you can; the more info you provide, the better the recipient will understand the issue.  Don't have a whining or complaining attitude when making a request; if they're offering something to you for free, out of their own generosity, respect that and remember that they don't owe you anything.  And, at all costs (this is perhaps the most important part), avoid putting down the person or his/her work.  Saying anything to the effect of "your (fill in the blank) sucks" or "you suck" will serve no other purpose but to stir up anger.

Again, please don't think that I'm trying to accuse you of anything, Ralesk -- like I said, I know nothing about the quality of your postings.  I just feel that this is good advice to go by.  If you already heed this advice, more power to ya.  If you don't -- well, give it a try.  I can't guarantee you'll always get better responses from ppl, but I can guarantee that it can only be an improvement (for yourself, as well as others' opinion of you).

Glad to have input from you guys

[Ralesk]

  I was all nice and cute in the beginning, especially compared to those freaks who have about zero English knowledge and just about no manners. But after seeing his Highness' ignorance, backed up by the by me little more respected MisterX, I started to become more and more angry... but kept trying, because back then I didn't know about XMPlay, thus, MPT happened to be the best module player around for windows -- although having nothing to do with reproduction fidelity. My anger resulted in arrogance and a later well deserved ignoration by the MP lords.
  So I ended up here, being one of the biggest supporters of XMPlay itself, I believe. And I pretty much enjoy it here, due to the fact that Ian at least listens to what I say -- even if he is sometimes too lazy to do it too At MP, they didn't even listen to me at all... And I don't think I was the only one. The main thread was VST and nothing but nothing else went to their brains but that.
  I also enjoy it here because of the people... You are a lot funnier bunch than those freaks out there on MP Forums

[Olego]

Amen to that, Ralesk!  Who would find a funnier person than you?    *snicker*    (I know, I know, everyone would rather laugh at me than with me...)

And as soon as XMPlay will have wave support (next release?), it'll be better than MP in all aspects!    Go Ian and XMPlay!

~Olego~

[Rah'Dick]

Hehe - true, true!
/me wants wave-support, too!  

Unfortunately I have to use MPT for one special thing: converting wav's to IT (or whatever) for the purpose of bringing "normal" music files into Unreal Engine games.  
(I know, better compose yourself than convert, but hell, who cares   )

MO3 surely is a cool format, and hey, it's yet another reason to get XMPlay2 'cause its the only player that supports the format!

[Vesh]

[Beatfox]: "And Ralesk, I haven't seen your ModPlug suggestions so I don't know how well you worded them or what info you included in them"

Beatfox, why... exactly... did you jump to the assumption that Ralesk is nothing but a whining newbie barking for features?  If you want to give advice, get to know the people you're giving it to first.

Both mine and Ralesk's proposals to OL were phrased with care in easily understandable language explaining the features we needed and why they would be useful.  I never once used any phrase similar to "that sucks" and I know Ral wouldn't.  OL fired the first shot by responding to our suggestions as if we were too simple minded to understand why he wouldn't want to implement something.  He wasn't just too busy to implement the suggestions, he was truly arrogant.  Instead of politely giving "intelligent and constructive" information, he attacked it, and me by saying it [paraphrasing, but not much] was something nobody would ever use and that the programs sounded just fine to him and as long as it did, it didn't need improving.  This was to me in an email, not on the boards.  He's a very different person outside of the public eye.

[skrebbel (Guest)]

uh. no offense but,

stop whining about how much the modplug people (olivier and kim aka misterx) suck.

if you don't like what they offer, don't use it. i don't like modplug (nor the site, nor the software), so i don't use it.

nobody forces you to use modplug. nobody forces anyone to use modplug. nobody has the right to tell olivier which features to implement. has it ever occured to you people that all modplug player/tracker, modplug.com, xmplay, bass, etc etc, are all made by hobbyists? nor ian, nor kim, nor olivier gain big money on all this. okay, modplug.com has banners. do you even believe those banners generate more revenue than the amount of bandwidth the big traffic to that site costs?

both olivier and kim have every right to be arrogant. they made something many people are using. many. if you don't like those people, your problem. if you don't understand why people use what olivier and kim made, your problem.

nobody forces you to use or even in whatsoever support or recognize modplug. you're totally allowed to ignore everything that has the word 'modplug' on it. it wouldn't have a big impact on your lives, and it would definately not have a big impact on the lives of olivier and kim.

if they don't implement something you think is a good feature, their choice. it's olivier's program, he is making it for his own enjoyment, for his own use. if he thinks your suggestion sucks, so be it. you just can't criticize a freeware author of being arrogant, lame, or whatsoever just because he has different ideas about the ultimate player than you.

i really don't understand what you people are whining about. the fact that we're on an un4seen shows that you're probably an xmplay user anyway.

ian was very right, anybody can use unmo3 to easily incorporate mo3 support into any module loader. if olivier doesn't want to, then so what? it's his choice, and he has a 100% veto on that issue.

so please, PLEASE stop the whining about modplug. if you don't like it, your choice. nobody can be arsed about that.

skrebbel.

(btw, nice words beatfox.)

[Ralesk]

if you don't like what they offer, don't use it. i don't like modplug (nor the site, nor the software), so i don't use it.

There were times I liked it. Olivier made nice efforts to make me hate it. I don't use it anymore, therefore I try to make XMPlay the best possible with my support and testing.

nobody forces you to use modplug. nobody forces anyone to use modplug. nobody has the right to tell olivier which features to implement. has it ever occured to you people that all modplug player/tracker, modplug.com, xmplay, bass, etc etc, are all made by hobbyists?
[...]
both olivier and kim have every right to be arrogant. they made something many people are using. many. if you don't like those people, your problem. if you don't understand why people use what olivier and kim made, your problem.

I made suggestions. I did not command him. (NB: it is "neither ... nor ... nor ...". The first is "neither".) Yea, they have their right to be arrogant... Have you seen Ian being arrogant? because for the year I know him, I have never. Since he is making a free software, he would have the full right to be arrogant -- according to your idea --, yet he isn't. And I never have problems with people unless they prove they are arses. Olivier has proven that, Alexander Brandon has proven that, Kim is almost someone who has proven that... just to mention names. From the Nameless, most of the ModPlug Forums people I communicated, have proven that.

nobody forces you to use or even in whatsoever support or recognize modplug. you're totally allowed to ignore everything that has the word 'modplug' on it. it wouldn't have a big impact on your lives, and it would definately not have a big impact on the lives of olivier and kim.

Yes, indeed. But I used modplug since 1.01beta3 or what it was called. Back then I did NOT know about any other windows module player, WinAmp couldn't play IT files (or at least very far from the way nature intended). I found a windows software doing almost what the DOS things did, and for I wouldn't be what I am if I hadn't given support, I pretty damn gave support!

if they don't implement something you think is a good feature, their choice. it's olivier's program, he is making it for his own enjoyment, for his own use. if he thinks your suggestion sucks, so be it. you just can't criticize a freeware author of being arrogant, lame, or whatsoever just because he has different ideas about the ultimate player than you.

If he is making it for his own personal use, then he shouldn't release it. Second thing, their site boasts/boasted about the extreme fidelity ModPlug had (or never had back then), in their "Why use ModPlug?" section (Tracker download page, some link there). I tell you, back then, and even till today, they have basic glitches they never cared to fix. For example: MP always resets song variables and cuts all notes on an occuring natural loop (ie. loop without loop point). Most "full loop" songs don't have the unnecessary B00 command in their last order, therefore the song will do a natural loop, and ModPlug will fBEEP it up. I made a song in IT where this occured, before I got to know MP. Olivier never realised this as a bug. No matter how many times I told him it wasn't right.


I have spoken. Now I shall return to my Flamedramon.

[Vesh]

[Edited so it wouldn't look like I was responding to Ralesk]
=P

Skreb, you've glossed over the important aspects of the situation and have misunderstood the true nature of the problem.

It's not about the product, it's about the attitude of the person behind it.  Nobody in existence has the right to be arrogant, and to really believe anyone does is to admit intellectual and moral defeat.  Dont be weak, and dont give in.

When I'm working, whether it be for profit or not, I take suggestions at face value and do my best to implement them.  If it doesn't work, I dont attack the person that suggested it, I tell them why it wont work.  This is courtesy and basic decency - it's automatic, I'd feel like I forgot something if I didn't do it.  OL doesn't seem to have, or see the need for this.  His responses were always broken, as if he had skimmed over my suggestions and mistook the real ideas and replaced it with the closest common approximation of what someone might say in an email.  It's my guess that the real raw idea never reached his mind.

You criticize my intentions without even understanding them.  You seem to think this is some grudge because something I thought of didn't get implemented.  You're wrong.  Different ideas about how to approach a single problem or design are what makes humanity work.  Different perspectives are always superior to just one and that's why I completely respect any decision about a suggestion.  What I dont respect is Oliver's attitude regarding basic human interaction.

Ian has the presense of mind, compassion for others, and strength of character to simply read an email word-for-word and respond politely.  His responses are usually short, but at least they're honest, and convey his ideas without embellishment.  OL goes out of his way and uses his own time to criticize the validity of an idea.  This suggests to me that he likes to flame differing opinion and considers his own values superior to others.

Dont simplify this situation.  You're guilty of your own crime - you're making me into a bad guy just because I have a different perspective on something.  This is problem is one of subtleties.  It has to do with personality and society - not grudges and trivial wants.  I dont hate OL, I dont hate people that use ModPlug - it's a fine program for people that like it.  What I abhor is OL's actual feelings towards his users as it taints the wholesomeness of his work - with an attitude like that, nothing he creates can be genuine.  A person's character carries over in their work, and OL is lacking.

[skrebbel (Guest)]

okay. more simple:

what i see here is people getting angry at other people for those other people not implementing certain suggested features into their freeware software.

that doesn't make sense to me. that's all. i'm not going to write a detailed reply, but vesh, i really do not believe i see things wrong. there is really no use for you people to hate/dislike/whatever olivier and friends. there are enough people on the world to be friends with, if there are three that you don't want to be friends with, then just don't. many people seem to like what olivier&friends do, good for them. you seem not to like what they do, well then where's the problem?

stop the whining, please. using freeware might be a right, but influencing the development of freeware when not coding on it yourself definately is not. that totally depends on the priorities of the author. you are free not to use modplug. you are free totally to ignore modplug. that is what i've been doing for the past year or so, and i have been greatly enjoying doing so ever since.

(no, i do not like the modplug people or their products either. we have the same opinion on that. however you just can't deny someone the right to make sucky software or simply to be an arse.)

[Vesh]

[scrab]: what i see here is people getting angry at other people for those other people not implementing certain suggested features into their freeware software.

You're wrong, and missing the point.

[skrebbel (Guest)]

[scrab]: what i see here is people getting angry at other people for those other people not implementing certain suggested features into their freeware software.

You're wrong, and missing the point.

sooo, if that's not the point, what is? that olivier is arrogant? that he's bad because he fmaes suggestions instead of normally considering them? that he believes his own values are more important than others' ?

if that's the point, then my previous post was very relevant, except for the part you just quoted.

nobody forces you to have anything to do with modplug. you didn't pay for modplug, your boss doesn't tell you to use modplug, you can frankly just totally ignore modplug and live your life just like you did before. what's the problem then?

[skrebbel (Guest)]

sooo, if that's not the point, what is? that olivier is arrogant? that he's bad because he fmaes suggestions instead of normally considering them? that he believes his own values are more important than others' ?

"fmaes" should have been "flames". sorry.

[Ralesk]

sooo, if that's not the point, what is? that olivier is arrogant? that he's bad because he flames suggestions instead of normally considering them? that he believes his own values are more important than others'?

[...] you can frankly just totally ignore modplug and live your life just like you did before. what's the problem then?

The only problem is that when we offered FREE help for a FREE software which he coud FREELY consider accepting, we got fBEEPing flamed out of our arses. That's the problem.

Being the programmer of a free software doesn't allow you to be a big arse. Nothing actually allows you that. If you are, no matter what you do -- free or non-free software for example -- you are bound to get posts like these behind your back.

[Olego]

Ralesk,

What gripe have you against Alexander Brandon?  What did he do, other than making some pretty good music for U, UT, and DX?

~Olego~

[Fraggie]

...and tons of other great modules as Siren...

[Mad]

ok, i think mostly all is said, but i just want to add one idea...
don't anyone of u think that there will be another coder, who also could make a mp3-compressed tracker?

ok, he'll earn no money, but a lot of glory.

it could happen tomorrow, in one month or several years, but it could...

Mad

[Ralesk]

hehe, i forgot i had mentioned him here Have I at all?

Well anycrap, he was nice and all for a while... I got to know him in 1999, in about April. Then he disappeared for a while and when he returned, he wasn't the same person I know... and he was damn arrogant and didn't even remember my name.

Michiel is another case, he tends to be nice -- IF he ever is online.

[Olego]

(Yah, somehow, we strayed off MO3 support to discussing people...  But this is a discussion board, anyways...  )

Ralesk, it just seems funny to me that someone forgot your name, your screenname being Ralesk82.    But even if he was arrogant, he still writes good music.  Nothing ever gives anyone a right to be conceited and arrogant, but people are, and there's usually nothing that we can do about it.    (And I like his tracks better than Michiel's.  )  Let's all enjoy the wonderful collection of good people around Un4Seen, like yourself, Ian, Vesh, Skreb, Keltic, RahDick, and all the other avid and not-so-avid posters.    

~Olego~

[Fraggie]

ok, i think mostly all is said, but i just want to add one idea...
don't anyone of u think that there will be another coder, who also could make a mp3-compressed tracker?

You mean like DigiBooster Pro?  

[Ralesk]

Hehe, olego... I had ICQ and mail contact with both. And although my nickname has changed -- later than I stopped talking to Alex due to his arrogance --, my ICQ UIN never changed.

I like both guys' tracks... some of Alex's are way better than some of Michiel's, but that's true vice versa sometimes too

[WITCH / LD]

Hi Ian!


Possible you can remember me, becouse i try to keep
the contact with all good tracker/player coders in this
world (Add ideas, etc)

Especially you.

Also i am a very old scener, musicer in this case...

And we sent to each other a lots of messages, a long time ago
about xmplay... maybe you are remember... )

And now, (as usual i really really amazed about your new file format.

MO3!

You are a true god, and i hope you get a long and happy
life just becouse that.  )

Also xmplay is the best - and possible the de facto
studio standard - utility the old - and real life musician - sceners. xmplay and mo3 is a very good combination.

Congratulation, now you are the absolutely best tracker coder in this planet.

Keep it the fire

WITCH