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[jeroenp]

A few comments on the forum (all when using IE6 fully patched) that I'd like to be solved:

- often it is impossible to scroll the messages by using the keyboard alone (PgUp/PgDn)
- I think it has to do with the focus not being on the right html control, as the tab-keys sometimes malfunction too
- the forum (actually the whole) site does url-rewriting, which makes it very hard to keep favourites to interesting topics

Regards,

--jeroen

[Ian @ un4seen]

- often it is impossible to scroll the messages by using the keyboard alone (PgUp/PgDn)
- I think it has to do with the focus not being on the right html control, as the tab-keys sometimes malfunction too

If the focus isn't on the main frame, you should be able to get there if you "tab" enough times. Or you could just click somewhere in the frame

- the forum (actually the whole) site does url-rewriting, which makes it very hard to keep favourites to interesting topics

I'm not sure about IE6, but in IE7 at least, you can bookmark a page by right-clicking in the main frame and selecting "Add to favourites".

[jeroenp]

- often it is impossible to scroll the messages by using the keyboard alone (PgUp/PgDn)
- I think it has to do with the focus not being on the right html control, as the tab-keys sometimes malfunction too

If the focus isn't on the main frame, you should be able to get there if you "tab" enough times. Or you could just click somewhere in the frame

This doesn't help.
Scrolling with the the scroll option of the mouse (either wheel or middle button) usually doesn't work either. Scrolling only works with the scroll bars.

- the forum (actually the whole) site does url-rewriting, which makes it very hard to keep favourites to interesting topics

I'm not sure about IE6, but in IE7 at least, you can bookmark a page by right-clicking in the main frame and selecting "Add to favourites".

I have tried IE7 and decided to stay with IE6 until they fix the keyboard handling.

[Zarggg]

Scrolling with mousewheel works fine for me on this forum. What browser are you using?

[Jace]

(all when using IE6 fully patched)

[Torkell]

What version of Windows? IE 6 is significantly different between Win2k and WinXP.

[Ian @ un4seen]

If the focus isn't on the main frame, you should be able to get there if you "tab" enough times. Or you could just click somewhere in the frame

This doesn't help.
Scrolling with the the scroll option of the mouse (either wheel or middle button) usually doesn't work either. Scrolling only works with the scroll bars.

That's strange. I just tried on IE6, and both the "tab" key and clicking in the frame gave it focus. And, once the frame had focus, scrolling it with keyboard and mouse-wheel worked fine. In fact, the mouse-wheel scrolling worked fine even when the frame didn't have focus. I don't know, but maybe some "special" keyboard/mouse drivers could be causing your troubles?

Incidentally, the right-click "Add to favourites" thing was also supported and working fine.

[jeroenp]

If the focus isn't on the main frame, you should be able to get there if you "tab" enough times. Or you could just click somewhere in the frame

This doesn't help.
Scrolling with the the scroll option of the mouse (either wheel or middle button) usually doesn't work either. Scrolling only works with the scroll bars.

That's strange. I just tried on IE6, and both the "tab" key and clicking in the frame gave it focus. And, once the frame had focus, scrolling it with keyboard and mouse-wheel worked fine. In fact, the mouse-wheel scrolling worked fine even when the frame didn't have focus. I don't know, but maybe some "special" keyboard/mouse drivers could be causing your troubles?

I have been experimenting the last weeks to see when it works and when not. Usually (not not always) it fails in IE6 on XPSP2EN when:
- following links by shift-clicking
- following search results from search engines
Both of these perform url-rewriting, and I think this is the main cause of the problem.

Which brings me to an important point of my initial post: url-rewriting.
Why is this happening?
Or more specifically: what on earth makes "http://www.un4seen.com/" more important to appear on the address bar than the url of the page you are actually viewing?

Incidentally, the right-click "Add to favourites" thing was also supported and working fine.

Actually, this is the thing that consistently works.
However, it forces me to use the mouse to add favourites in stead of using my keyboard.
It thereby hinders people with disabilities, probably violating a lot of rules about good design
Note that some governments have actually formalized these rules, like the US Section 508 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Section_508) and the German BITV (http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/BITV).

So please refrain from using the url-rewriting in its current form.

Thanks in advance,

--jeroen

[Tsorovan]

URL-rewriting can't possibly be the correct term here... you mean frames.
We've been complaining about frames here too, but it is what it is... at least until there's a redesign.

[Zarggg]

The frames could easily be emulated with a well-designed stylesheet using DIVs.

[Tsorovan]

Probably not going to work with this forum software, at least not OotB.
Also, the menu would scroll, which Ian doesn't favour. Unless you had some nasty javascript thingy repositioning it for you.

[Jace]

But you can use CSS to keep it in place. Even with IE.

[Torkell]

IFRAME tags, perhaps?

...

I'll just get my coat, shall I?

[Tsorovan]

Jace: only with fixed positioning, no? AFAIK, there are some ugly hacks required to get it to work across all browsers.
As for the forum; last time I checked you can't embed an external .html in a div... unless you use SSIs, and that would be quite a headache to pull off...

Then again I might be wrong here because I'm no HTML wizard at all and I hate web design (sadly, I might add, since I'm presently doomed to work with it).

[Jace]

Yes, position: fixed; works for pretty much everything but IE, but there's a trick to that too. You'd put everything in a 100%x100% div, (html & body scrolling would be disabled) and then the menu on a different div outside the one that contains 'everything'. As you said, very dirty and ugly hack, but it's doable.

And what it comes to the forum; it would be doable with PHP, which the server seems to support (at least it runs the forum!). there's the include-command, which allows you to include any file into another. The only problem would be all the links the forum creates, but I believe it would just need an edit of the index.php in forum/. It's one thing to include a file into a template which has the top and side bars, and completely other to include the bars into another file. At least I remember fixing a phpbb relatively easily like that, not certain of how SMF functions. =\

But as to the topic, I personally have no issues with the current design (apart from the source not being valid ). I've one link to the place, going directly to the XMP-forum.

[Tsorovan]

That's what I meant with SSIs (Server-Side Includes). I don't know how flexible the forum software is...

[Jace]

Ah, right you are. For some reason I comprehended that as 'IIS'. x))
I'll blame the alcohol on that.

[Ian @ un4seen]

I recall seeing some examples of frames without frames, which I was considering using, but I wasn't sure about the compatibility of these techniques. With their little differences, it seemed unlikely that it'd work as intended with all browsers (or at all in the case of older ones), whereas real frames should do. That was a while ago though, and as time goes by, I guess these things should be more uniform/widespread.

As mentioned, another issue is including the extra code in all the pages. That shouldn't be a problem with the forum pages, as it uses a single main template which could include the extra code, but the static HTML pages would be a bit of a problem. I've been considering switching it all to PHP anyway, so if/when that happens, I'll probably look into this frame stuff again then.

[jeroenp]

Please disable URL rewriting!!!!!!!!!!!

The URL writing rewrites http://www.un4seen.com/forum/?topic=6534.0 as http://www.un4seen.com/
It does not matter if I use IE or FF.

This interferes with Google Bookmarks.
It makes all forum bookmarks that I did in the last couple of days point to the main site.
I.e. basically these bookmarks now all are useless, and I need at least a couple of hours to redo these bookmarks using manual cut pasting the URL's by hand.

Never ever do URL rewriting!!!!

--jeroen

[Dreamy]

It's frameset, man...

[jeroenp]

Actually it *is* URL rewriting.
Or more precise: the mismatch of the URL in the address bar and the content you see.

Since framesets *can* work without URL rewriting quite easiliy (that's why the original URL http://www.un4seen.com/forum/?topic=6534.0 works in the first place!), the site should turn off URL rewriting.

As the original URL work, the infrastructure is there, so it should not be that hard to keep that one in the address bar.

In fact, it is this little piece of .js code that breaks the address http://www.un4seen.com/un4seen.js
From the .js file, this is the line that does it:
if (window==top) top.location.replace("/");

It rewrites the url, and forcibly replaces it with http://www.un4seen.com/
thereby breaking all favourite manager tools around (not only the google bookmark manager).

[Dreamy]

Emm http://www.un4seen.com/forum works fine anyway...
...in my opera fast access...
I guess Ian or Haaf had some reasons to create it like this.
(Actually, the reason is something that I haven't really catched.)

[Tsorovan]

dreamwalker: You don't understand... you can't bookmark particular threads without creating bookmarks manually (copy/paste URLs around).

[Dreamy]

Ah, this way, yeah, I understand. I use Ctrl+Alt+C (Copy link adress).
Sure it's quite less comfortable... Drag and drop works anyway.

[jeroenp]

Ian got back to me by email.

It appears that removing this rewrite will effectively get rid of the main web-site menu around the forum.
That is the downside, that is: if you don't have other means of accessing the main site yourself.
The upsides from the forum point of view are:
- full url in the address bar
- topic title in the title bar
- way more reading space

I have created a small .js file that has the rewriting removed.
When you ise IE, it is very simple to replace when you use the rules editor of Fiddler2 (http://www.fiddler2.com).
You get into the rules editor by pressing Ctrl+R inside Fiddler2.

Then add this rule extension to the OnBeforeRequest method :

if (oSession.url=="www.un4seen.com/un4seen.js")
{ oSession.url = "www.xs4all.nl/~jp/www.un4seen.com/un4seen-new.js "; }

Didn't want to keep that one for myself, so if you need it, here you have it 

So now I can finally enjoy all the bookmarks inside my external bookmark repository

--jeroen

[Dreamy]

jeroen, pretty good solution, my respect.

[Ian @ un4seen]

It is now possible to open the forum in a new window/tab (eg. right-click the link) without the frames opening up around it.

[jeroenp]

I just noticed 

Muchos gracias!